8 Things Guys Should NOT Do On Dates - Guest post by Jen Lee

Jen Lee and I below my kissing booth.

I’d like to preface this post by saying that none of the following stories are about Zack. You can hear all his dating stories by reading the rest of his blog. And you’ll know when he tells a story about me. Canadians are such easy targets.

Also, while I did not average going on 3 dates a week last year like he did, I am a 24 year-old girl who graduated from BYU. By nature of these facts alone, I have plenty of good and bad dating experiences, and therefore feel qualified to write this post.

Now, having established my credentials, here is my list of eight things guys should not do on dates: 

1) Do not do a marathon date

This is probably the most violated rule of them all. You asked us to go on a date, not six.

Think of it this way. Zack is running an actual marathon in June. He prepares for it by doing several short runs each week. The same concept applies to dating. We are training for the marathon called “exclusive relationship” or “marriage” by going on lots of short dates before the actual event. You’ll hurt yourself if you run the marathon at the beginning.

Remember: you do not increase your chances of her liking you by increasing the amount of activities you do together in one night.

And girls, if the date is turning into a marathon, it is okay to suggest the date be over. A few months ago, I went on a date to a comedy show that ended earlier than expected. My date felt pressured to find more things to do, so I simply told him, “Well, we don’t have to do anything else. I had fun, but the show is over now, so maybe we should just call it a night.” He very eagerly complied (perhaps a little too eager…) and took me straight home. It worked out great! 

2) Do not begin the date by saying, “You’re gonna hate me when this is over…”

Story: I was supposed to go on a group date with a guy. The first thing he said when he picked me up was, “Okay, there are three reasons why you are going to hate me when this is over. One, my group date is actually tomorrow, so it’s just the two of us tonight. Two, I’m taking you to your work (the BYU Museum of Art). Three, my car is about to break down.” I looked at his dashboard and every warning light imaginable was lit. I found out two weeks later that he didn’t even have a valid driver’s license or car insurance. Needless to say, the date didn’t go too well.

Moral of the story: don’t tell the girl how awful the date will be at the beginning, because she’ll just look for reasons why she should hate you. At least give her the benefit of the doubt until she figures the reasons out on her own! 

True Zombie Love...

3) Do not ask the girl to go on a hike, to a secluded park, or to a graveyard

I was studying in the library at 9am on a Saturday when a young man approached me and asked me to go on a date. First of all, I had never met this man, and secondly, he wanted to take me on a hike.

Okay. So the guy probably wasn’t a crazy rapist or murderer, and most of you guys aren’t either, but please take your date somewhere public. It helps her feel safe and comfortable. And unless you are both dead already, stay away from graveyards. That’s just a creepy date idea no matter who you are. 

4) Do not pray at the beginning of your date

My old roommate was a mere 10 minutes into a date when the guy pulled his truck over and announced, “I’m so sorry, we forgot to pray!” She hid her confusion, stifled her laughter, and let the guy say a prayer to bless them on their date.

Weird! You pray before meals, you pray before you go to bed, you can even pray alone before your date, but you do not pray together on a first date! 

5) Be careful with the dating roommates thing

So this isn’t an official “Do Not,” because sometimes it does work out. However, I have been involved in more love triangles, squares, pentagons, and trapezoids than I care to talk about. Most of these have involved roommates, and luckily we all managed to stay friends. Despite the positive end result, there was way too much drama going on while in the moment, and one wrong move could have made us enemies.

Please be careful, courteous, honest, and perceptive before getting into those kinds of situations. 

6) Do not let her decide what to do when you pick her up

Because A) putting her on the spot will make her indecisive and she’ll say “I don’t know, what do you want to do?” and then you’ll waste twenty minutes trying to figure out what to do. Or B) she will get upset and vent to her roommates about what an unorganized, unprepared dater you are, and then you will be blacklisted.

 7) Do not do ninja dates

WHAAAAA! Beware the Ninjas!

You go to hang out with your friend and then SURPRISE! Ninja date!

Ninja dates are often initiated when a guy calls a girl to “hang out.” There is no mention of the word "date" in the conversation, just an "I really want to go [insert form of entertainment] tonight. Want to come?" Those last three words mess us up. Our minds start racing. Is this a date? Should I pay for myself? Can I invite my roommates to come? Will there be an awkward doorstep scene? Ninja dates are awkward and confusing.

Be clear that your intent is to go on a date with the girl. Also, and this applies to all kinds of dates, make sure she knows exactly when you will pick her up, where you are going (unless it’s a surprise), and what kind of clothing she should wear (if the activity involves a specific dress code). 

8) Do not prey on unsuspecting women, unless a heavenly messenger told you to

Okay, so maybe this is just a “Do not do this to Jen” thing, but I’m pretty sure I can generalize that statement to most women out there.

I have been asked out in the library (see #3), at the grocery store, while running to the bathroom (it was more of a fast walk, really), while leaving church with friends, at the gym, while running home from the gym, while at a BYU Philharmonic Orchestra concert, and by a homeless man on my lunch break. Not to mention all the Egyptian/Palestinian/Guatemalan men I came across while traveling who cut to the chase by asking me to be their wife and have their babies.

Good example of why it is difficult to ask out random girls... (Thanks Jen for the link!)

The point is, in each of these cases I did not previously know the man who asked me out, and that bothered me. Each instance was a complete surprise. I was obviously preoccupied doing something else important and did not wish to be bothered by a stranger claiming he wants to date me.

So, unless a heavenly messenger told you to sneak attack, get to know her a little bit before you ask her out. Talk to her, befriend her on facebook (but don't ask her out on facebook!), and make sure she knows you aren’t a creep. You don’t have to become best friends, just make some sort of normal human interaction with her before you go for the kill. Believe me, it helps.

In 20 Years Will I Love?

With getting the save the date of my dear friend Louise and hearing that one of my other best friends, Paul just got engaged (both from NJ), I've had marriage on my mind (as opposed to....? (i guess it isn't true, 'what we think about we bring about')).

I was with my friend (one of my ex's...naturally) the other day and she said that one of her fears about getting married was wondering if her spouse would still love her in 20 years.

In an instant my mind was flooded in thought (i was still listening though! ...ok, so i have A.D...oh look, a close parentheses mark). I suddenly realized the advice that I had given so many of my friends was one pill that was too bitter for me to swallow: the reality that it takes just as much bravery to take a risk on someone as it does to be someone else's risk. Our minds are drowned with two sinking questions:

Am I really capable of loving someone for the rest of my life?


Am I really worth loving for the rest of my life?

I had been avoiding these questions since I lost love oh so long ago (but never long enough).

But maybe it's time. Time for me to jump...

Elder Holland, a living Apostle has said, "No serious courtship or engagement or marriage is worth the name if we do not fully invest all that we have in it and in so doing trust ourselves totally to the one we love. You cannot succeed in love if you keep one foot out on the bank for safety's sake. The very nature of the endeavor requires that you hold on to each other as tightly as you can and jump in the pool together." (read the whole talk here...AMAZING!)

So all I have to say is that I hope the girl I'm going after right now doesn't read this post and get scared off because this boy's about to hang up his hot tubbing eurosuit and upgrade to his poofy papa pool trunks (3 point alliteration!) (of course...i'm NOT really going to stop going hot tubbing and i'm NOT really going to wear poofy trunks...but metaphorically, speaking).

For in 20 years I'll be nothing but excited to look at my wife and tell her that I know I've got at least another 20 to love her...and hear her say the same.

Can Girls Ask Guys Out?

I was in the hot tub last night and this wonderfully fun girl named Melisa asked me just this question (i'm not sure why the guy she wants to ask out doesn't just grow a pair...of eyes to see what is right in front of him and ask her out himself!). 

To me, there are two good ways to ask a guy out and two very bad ways. 

Good way 1: find some obscure place that you KNOW this guy has never been to and say, "Hey, [insert name of victim], have you ever heard of [insert obscure location for eating/doing something fun (note: not squaw peak)]? [pause]...No? (sound surprised...practice in the mirror, even) We should totally go there sometime." Classic. Simple. If he doesn't ask you out after that...well, you gave it a good shot and move on. He either doesn't like you or is too dense.

Good way 2: "Hey [insert name of next victim], it is wednesday night! That means 2 for 1 pie night at Village Inn!! Come on! Pie's on me!" (i'm still waiting for the day when someone will say this to me...[*sigh])

Bay way 1: "Do you want to go out with me?" Ugh. Let's face it, a lot of guys like this just because they're wimps. Give hints, be nice, invite them over for dinner, do the first 2 ways...but seriously? It is fine to ask a guy out if he has already asked you out, but be patient. Play by the rules. Let him work for you. You are worth it. 

Bad way 2: "I have this ticket to this thing and this guy just bailed. It is in like an hour (and i know that you OBVIOUSLY have nothing to do)...do you want to come? (oh yeah, and don't bring your self respect...you won't be needing it tonight)." BOOOOO! Ask a friend who is gay...not a guy you're interested in. 

So yes, it is okay for a girl to ask a guy out, and we would LOVE it if girls would ask us out a little bit more...just not in such a scary way. Hunters fear being hunted. But in the end, if things don't work out, at least you won't be in the friend zone anymore. Phweewh! 

My 4 Rules of Kissing

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about HOW to kiss. (for that I can refer you so some people who consider themselves specialists on the subject) I merely want to discuss My Rules of Kissing.

1. don't kiss on your first chance. This seems easy, but it isn't. If you have the chance to kiss someone, DON'T. If you wake up the next morning and still want to kiss them...well, you know what to do.

2. don't feel committed by one kiss. People take first kisses WAY too seriously. It is dipping your toe in the pool. You don't have to jump if you don't want to. 80% of girls I have kissed I've only kissed once (let's just say the "hot tub was not above 100 degrees...so to speak). That being said, remember to kiss sparingly, for if you give out your kisses like pretzels, it will always leave you thirsty for more.

3. get committed on the second kiss. People take second kisses WAY too flippantly. If you kiss her twice, stop dating other people. Be kind and don't rewind if she isn't the find that's on your mind. (I just came up with that. For those who don't get the first part, you're probably too young to remember VHS. Those are the big black rattly things that came before DVDs. There used to be a slogan to remind people to rewind. ..."rewind"...how do i explain that. It is like pressing the back arrow on your ipod. ...why was that needed? ...h'm. K, well just go read about it)

4. kiss selflessly. The best kind of kisses don't happen with a certain style (like "the circle thing," for example) but rather when you kiss someone and you do it entirely to satisfy one desire: to tell the person you care about them when words seem too trite. That is worth a thousand cheap make outs.

So kiss, and kiss well. But don't be like some hormone-crazed primate out to feed your desires and/or seek faulty vindication for a lack of depth in your life.

My First Guest Post: Sam, do I really want to get married right in the middle of my single life?

For my first guest post, I couldn't think of a better writer than Sam (now) Murphy. While we have never dated, she did date two of my best friends and married one of them. I also tried to date her sister. So let's count it. I'm proud to present the artistic literary meanderings of my married (and still fun) friend, Sam:


Five years ago, a friend of mine decided she’d had enough of dating. On Ash Wednesday, she adamantly declared she would give up boys forever — or at the very least, till Easter.

Before Lent was up, she was formally engaged with a ring on her finger.

In August 2009, I gave a talk in sacrament meeting on dating (bad idea, Bishop) which ended up being little more than a bitter public diatribe with a half-hearted call for hope at the end. In it I said — and this is a direct quote — “I can’t imagine a day when it will cease to blow my mind that two people at the same time can reach a level of emotional stability sufficient to allow them agree to marry each other.”

Six weeks later I did exactly that.

Adventurous, mysterious, spontaneous, experimental single life is fantastic. It’s trying to not be single that’s mostly miserable. It’s the tugging obligation that’s obstructing your happiness. That’s the part that’s complicated and obnoxious. It’s itchy, for lack of a better word.

So we give up. We take vacations. We abolish real dating from our lives go on sabbaticals to carefree lands of attachment-free single fun and flirting. We hibernate and rest a while, so we can emerge refreshed, renewed and ready to get back to the itchy battle of actually trying to find someone.

Why is being married worth this? Why is the work — and sometimes the bloodshed — worth sacrificing the awesomeness of just looking to look and not to buy?

Easy. When you find the right person at the right time, all of a sudden, it’s being single that’s miserable. It’s being single that’s in the way of being happy. When you find someone right — and you’re ready for them and they’re ready for you — the idea of adventurous, mysterious, spontaneous life alone is nothing but a nuisance.

There will be parts of single life you miss when it’s all said and done — like endless nights of hot tub hopping (cough, Zack) and expensive karaoke birthday parties. But in the clutch, there is no mourning the loss of life unattached. It doesn’t even feel like a sacrifice.

P.S. Watch what you give up for Lent and be careful what you say on the subject of dating over the pulpit or otherwise. You may shortly be eating your words.


For more of Sam's ingeniously insightful posts, you can find her at www.brightandbushy.com/blog.

The Lost Art of Post-Date Texting

Let me give you some context to this rant: I went on an average of about 3 dates a week last year, or about 159 dates. I spend about $30 per date so in total I spent around $4,770. Now, if my dating budget was my post-date texting plan, I would have spent a little under $1,000 PER TEXT.

That is right, I received 5 post-date texts in 2010.

5.

That means that 97% of dates did not result in a post-date text. People seemed surprised when i tell them this...but never anyone i went on a date with.

I saw a study done and it showed that if someone SENT a post-date text, there was a 70% chance that they wanted to go out again...YET, if they DIDN'T send a post-date text, there was a 60% chance they weren't trying to say anything at all--good or bad. And in fact, almost all of those 60% would be interested in another date.

Girls...seriously, make it easier for us. Us guys are simple creatures.

If you would like to go out with us again, send the text. If not, then don't.

Oh yeah, and if you don't have text messaging, maybe you should try dating an Amish guy. I hear they're cool with stuff like that.

One Choice to Make

The race has begun, as strangers we run,
Will we make it home back around?

Two paths you can take, but one choice to make,

On which will your footprints be found?

Are you seeking the gold, worth treasures untold,

To pay for the price to get in?

Or is all just swell buying stones to sell,

Soon to wonder what might have been?

For the path to perfection is paved with correction,

Leading you straight back home.

While the way to hell says, ‘All is well,’

But soon you’ll meander alone.

So when the armor feels heavy, and tears soon to come…

Lift up your head and His sword.

Hear the voice of The One, “Well done my son,

Enter thou into the joy of the Lord.”

(the above pic is from my mission in Ukraine when I saw a goat herder and his little flock)

Was Dating ALWAYS This Awkward Before Facebook?

Story: i was digging this girl a few months ago. Let's call her...dunno, how about Rebecca (since that is her name). I met her thought she was cool...but chickened out and didn't get her number. 

I figured that was okay since i could just stalk her on fbook and play the whole wall post to message to asking number to calling to going out play. (strong hand, usually). Well turns out hunny don't have fbook. So i did was anyone my age would do: rent "you've got mail" to see how courting was done back then.

Then i did what any person would do in the 1700's...i stopped by her apartment. 

open curtain.

[Enter Zack]

[Zack Knocks on door]

Rebecca: Oh hey Zack... 

[look around awkwardly as if you just flushed my perfectly healthy pet fish down the toilet because you thought the tank smelled bad (i'll never forgive my brother for that)]

Zack: ...um. Just wanted to stop by and say hi. 

Rebecca:...

Zack: So....hi.

Rebecca: oh...Hi. well--come in(?). 

[Rebecca makes this face :/ ]

[Zack passes threashold]

Random Boy: Oh hey...i just am making some dinner for Rebecca and I.

Rebecca: so, do you want to stay and eat with us?

[Random Boy glares at Zack like a lion who just got the the dying beast first]

Zack: ...maybe i should go. 

[Exit Zack]

Awkward. 

And that was that. Our interactions were cut short and we never reached out to each other again. 

Moral of the story: never date a girl who isn't on facebook.